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#8120 – A propos de 4SEo

Posted in ‘Pre-sale questions’
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Wednesday, 01 September 2021 13:01 UTC
HDcms
Bonjour Yannick Je me permets de reposer les questions suite au dernier article car je ne suis pas sûr d'avoir compris si cela répondait à mes besoins. Je précise que ma demande uen automatisation maximum et concerne joomla4 Je suis bien sûr vivement intéressé par une extension qui les rassemblera "toutes" tellement je me perds dans des extensions qui ont des fonctionnalités qui se recouvrent : métadescription, redirection, canonical, opengraph ... :-( métadescription:Jsitemap stocke ce qu'il trouve et nos modifs dans ... ces tablesEFSEO prétent qu'il fait cela automatiquement mais je n'ai pas eu l'info ou le support et pas d'infos quand il sera compatible pour joomla 4 ?=> 4SEO génére t-il les meta *automatiquement* dans les tables articles de joomla ? avec une limite max ?Possible de changer la description cote joomla, reconne par 4SEO pour donner son avis ? custom fieds et opengraph:J'ai compris que ce n'est pas compris dans la version actuelle. Par contre, pas sûr d'avoir compris si cela serai fait ultérieurement pour les champs personnalisés :  vidéo, soudcloud ... (a chaque fois je parle plutôt de vignettes provenant d'hébergeurs externes et non stockés en interne !C'est donc le rendu posté sur facebook entre autre qui ml'intéresse dans ce cas opengraph:Avec joomla 4 et les templates principaux gratuits, j'ai l'impression qu'il n'y a plus besoin de plugin spécifique pour la publication d'article sur les réseaux sociaux qui reprennent l'image du contenu!Est-ce vrai et qu'apporte de plus 4SEO ? Redirections urls suite à changement alias:Nous sommes parfois obligés de changer le titre de l'article et donc de l'alias. J'ai cru comprendre que ni 4SEO, ni 4SEF ne le ferait ?Des extensions permettent si celles-ci sont intégrés de pouvoir générer */automatiquement* une redirection de l'url. A près qu'il y ait des cas de ficgureou cela doit se faire manuellement ne me pose pas de problème  J'ai vu aussi au moins 1 autre qui permettraient de faire cela avec des règles sophistiquées sur n'importe quel type d'url même après installation. Peut-être un jour dans  4SEO ? Canonical:4SEO arrive à choisir la meilleure url ? la vraie ;-)(actuellement j'utilise route66) Si vous avez des articles la dessus , n'éhsitez pasJ'ai posté mes questions il y a quelques jours mais je vois seulement la réponse maintenant.Je n'ai pas pu profiter de la réduction car elle est maintenant clôturer, j'espère que vous aurez d'autres réductions d'ici la fin de l'année : blackfriday, noel ... Ce n'est pas urgent mais important pour moi Bonne journée
 
Wednesday, 01 September 2021 13:42 UTC
wb_weeblr

Hi

Please make sure to only use English in all communications with us, this is the only language we can communicate in and the only language were content can be shared and used by the entire community.

métadescription:Jsitemap stocke ce qu'il trouve et nos modifs dans ... ces tablesEFSEO prétent qu'il fait cela automatiquement mais je n'ai pas eu l'info ou le support et pas d'infos quand il sera compatible pour joomla 4 ?=> 4SEO génére t-il les meta *automatiquement* dans les tables articles de joomla ? 

We store custom description in our own database tables, bsed on the URL. Storing in Joomla tables would only work with regular articles and not with any third party extension. 

The other big issue with storing in Joomla content tables is Joomla routing (the #1 SEO issue in Joomla). As Joomla does not assign a single URL to a piece of content, we do not know where the description (or title ore other things) should be stored to be displayed: in the article? in the menu item? if so, which menu item?

Possible de changer la description cote joomla, reconne par 4SEO pour donner son avis ?

I do not understand what "pour donner son avis" means in this context. "Give your opinion" on what?

Meta description process is simple:

- if Jooml has a meta description, it's used

- if you manually enter a description for a page, this overrides the Joomla description

- if no description in Joomla and no description entered manually in 4SEO, then 4SEO generates ones automatically.

custom fieds et opengraph:J'ai compris que ce n'est pas compris dans la version actuelle.

OpenGraph is of course already included and likely one of the best OpenGraph generation on the market, with more than 10 years of sh404SEF experience there. Best automatic image detection for sure. Also, manually customizable on any page of the site of course (in the admin or on the frontend)

What we do not do is the ability to designate one custom fields such as an image custom field and use that as the image in OpenGraph. It will happen but not considered a priority at the moment due to low usage of custom fields in practice.

Par contre, pas sûr d'avoir compris si cela serai fait ultérieurement pour les champs personnalisés :  vidéo, soudcloud ...

Video in OpenGraph will added soon, we already detect them, at least embedded MP4. Soundcloud, I'm not sure what you mean, OpenGraph does not have any audio tag, there seems to be a confusion here.

(a chaque fois je parle plutôt de vignettes provenant d'hébergeurs externes et non stockés en interne !

So you are only talking about detecting images and using them in OpenGraph tags? If so, again the process is simple. If these images are physically present in the HTML of the page as generated by Joomla, they will be auto-detected. If they are inserted with javascript by Youtube or similar, then we won't auto-detect them. I don't think you'll ever see any extension doing that.

4SEO may help you here, even for thumbnails inserted with javascript as you can use our frontend interface and this interface will let you select images inserted with javascript. It's manual but you can do it visually, without having to copy/paste any URL. Note this really depends on the service. Again, in the general case, only images found in the HTML generated by Joomla can be autodetected.

Avec joomla 4 et les templates principaux gratuits, j'ai l'impression qu'il n'y a plus besoin de plugin spécifique pour la publication d'article sur les réseaux sociaux qui reprennent l'image du contenu!Est-ce vrai 

There is no change in that respect with Joomla or any other template. Joomla does nothing about SEO really, and of course nothing about OpenGraph or Twitter Cards. Some templates may have added OpenGraph features. Auto-detecting images is a very complicated topic and I doubt any such template can handle that. There are even very, very few OpenGraph extensions that can do that actually.

Nous sommes parfois obligés de changer le titre de l'article et donc de l'alias. J'ai cru comprendre que ni 4SEO, ni 4SEF ne le ferait ?Des extensions permettent si celles-ci sont intégrés de pouvoir générer */automatiquement* une redirection de l'url

I don't know any extension that can do that automatically, due to the way Joomla routing works. The alias of an article may or may not be used in the URL, depending on how the item is linked from a menu or not, or available through a category which is itself linked from a menu item. That's just not doable reliably.

Another even more important thing from an SEO standpoint is that most of the times, if you change an article title, you must not change the article alias and URL. You should keep the same URL, even if the alias is slightly change, precisely to avoid having to do a redirect.

J'ai vu aussi au moins 1 autre qui permettraient de faire cela avec des règles sophistiquées sur n'importe quel type d'url même après installation

That's different. If you are not talking about automatic but instead using rules, then 4SEO is likely hard to beat. We're building on 15 years of sh404SEF, and 4SEO is even easier to use for complex redirects. I thought you were talking about automatic redirects. 

 Canonical:4SEO arrive à choisir la meilleure url ? la vraie ;-)

Yes. That was the key point allowing me to move away from sh404SEF changing the URLs. sh404SEF builds URL that are unique to each piece of content because it does not use menu items for URLs. So a given article has just one single URL, always, under any circumstances.

But managing URLs make things more complex as some extensions assumes the menu item association. And so for 4SEO, I developed another method based on canonical. Canonicalization is not based on the URL, where you cannot dtermine the actual content item, but instead we strip all useless query variables and only keep the important ones to build an internal "id". For a regular article, it will be composed of com_content/id=12/view=article for instance. And so if the same article is linked through different menu items (typical duplicate content in Joomla), we will identrify it's the same page and can add a canonical to the original one.

We also use this auto-canonicalization to build the sitemap, by removing all the duplicates from the sitemap, a basic requirement.

(actuellement j'utilise route66) 

I am not aware of Route66 doing anything with auto-canonicalization. Problem is always the same: either you build URLs without including menu items, in which case modules or template assignements may sometimes not work well. Or your use menu items, and then you can get duplicates as soon as the site is not trivial or using 3rd-party extensions.

Best regards

Yannick Gaultier

weeblr.com / @weeblr

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 
Wednesday, 01 September 2021 14:48 UTC
HDcms
HI Strange I lose the indentation.I saw somewhere that it was the private mode but well.Ok I'll just use translate and hope to stay understandable? metadescription "We store custom description in our own database tables, bsed on the URL. Storing in Joomla tables would only work with regular articles and not with any third party extension. " You rely a lot on usage rates to develop these features.Do you have many requests to integrate these extensions in the generation of meta descriptions?Couldn't there be a specific rule for joomla articles?Because if now I switch from jsitemap to your extension, I lose all the content of jsitemap tables (including my changes!!)EFSEO does it well but not sure it goes to joomla 4 and little / no support ?This is the most annoying point for me! custom fieds and opengraph: Ok this is a bit complicated. On the page https://www.clibre.eu/fr/infos-sur-le-libre, the extension allows you to display the images of the image, video, soundcloud fields.I would have liked that by publishing on facebook, I have the same thing. It is not the case. Maybe one day someone will make it possible? but I understood that it is not the priority Redirection "I don't know any extension that can do that automatically, due to the way Joomla routing works. The alias of an article may or may not be used in the URL, depending on how the item is linked from a menu or not, or available through a category which is itself linked from a menu item. That's just not doable reliably."It seems that https://extensions.joomla.org/extension/site-management/url-redirection/jredirects/ and https://extensions.joomla.org/extension/site-management/fix-404-error-links/ do? canonical Ok bravo, you found an original method and I wish you long lifeI have to think again because of my need for meta. I hope you will make a reduction by the end of the year. Regards
 
Wednesday, 01 September 2021 16:41 UTC
wb_weeblr

Hi

You rely a lot on usage rates to develop these features.Do you have many requests to integrate these extensions in the generation of meta descriptions?

Considering the number of extensions, experience (sh404SEF, wbAMP, Josetta even) has shown that a good generic system is better than having to provide support for individual extensions, because there are so many.

So I first develop a system that works everywhere and then can provide for some extensions (see K2 and Hikashop in last release for instance) additional optimizations. And yes, this is based on usage.

Couldn't there be a specific rule for joomla articles?Because if now I switch from jsitemap to your extension, I lose all the content of jsitemap tables (including my changes!!)

The only thing you would lose is your changes. Everything that you did not manually enter is not lost. One way to address this is usuall to develop import filters (see JoomSEF and MijoSEF importers for sh404SEF) but that's not going to happen right away. 

Again, I don't see how EFSEO does anything different here. The issue of finding whether an article is linked to a menu and which meta data applies is not solvable in a generic manner, even just for Joomla content. You can have simplified "fallback" solutions such as just forgetting about the custom meta data in menu items but I think I prefer a reliable and repetitive solution than one that will work sometimes and not others.

 On the page https://www.clibre.eu/fr/infos-sur-le-libre, the extension allows you to display the images of the image, video, soundcloud fields

I don't see anything related to soundclould on that page, only a youtube video. I am not aware of any extension which can extract these automatically. It's usually simply impossible because those sites (YouTube, SoundClouds) don't have an API to extract the images.

It might be technically possible to do this for YouTube. This would require doing an authorization workflow (similar to when you connect to Google Analytics to extract data). You would likely require to enter credit card information in Google API system to be allowed to use that. And it'd be rather complicated of course.  I don't see how it can be worth it. 

https://extensions.joomla.org/extension/site-management/url-redirection/jredirects/

JRedirects indeed does track menu changes and redirect accordingly. It does look like  that will only work for directly linked items though (from what I've seen). Also, and as mentioned previously, you are often better off NOT changing the URL even if you change the menu structure, so as to avoid the need for a redirect altogether (that's what happens with sh404SEF).

With 4SEO, if you change an alias or menu structure, there will be no redirect BUT a canonical will be inserted automatically. Next best thing to a redirect.

 https://extensions.joomla.org/extension/site-management/fix-404-error-links/ do?

Nope, it just try to search for similar words in the 404 URL and existing content. Or you can enter redirect rules but with rather limited possibilities. (compared to sh404SEF or 4SEO). It also only appears to work with 404 errors, not just about any URL.

I have to think again because of my need for meta.

You have to assess how much custom meta you have in JSitemap. Maybe that's a project for when switching to Joomla 4, in a few month. The other thing to keep in mind in my opinion is that custom meta (eg description) matters less and less each day. Description is only used in less than 30-40% of searches by Google. And Title are now starting to be rewritten even more often. That's one of the reasons why I have made 4SEO focuse equally on Structured Data, which I believe is now far more important than meta data.

I hope you will make a reduction by the end of the year. Regards

Unfortunately, I tend to never do any discount, in order to keep our prices as low as possible for everyone, all year round. Discounts on short period of times have to be compensated in price for the rest of the year! (last discount was for a very, very special event, once in a lifetime :) 

Best regards

Yannick Gaultier

weeblr.com / @weeblr

 

 

 
Thursday, 02 September 2021 06:50 UTC
HDcms
Hi == metadescriptionI'm not sure I understood everything with the menu/article problem but ok.How can I lose just my modifications if all the meta used come from your tables and I remove your component?== custom fieds and opengraph:On another site I display the soundcloud thumbnail. I don't know how the dev' did it but you are not the first to tell me that it is difficult? See maybe his code of this very good extension: https://nx-designs.ch/showcase/exposerThank you for these arguments, sometimes technical, it is very rare in pre-sales!I wish you another happy event in your life and that ... it leads you to make another reduction because if I had to buy the 2 now it would be expensive for our associative sites. Regards
 
Thursday, 02 September 2021 09:00 UTC
wb_weeblr

Hi

metadescriptionI'm not sure I understood everything with the menu/article problem but ok.

You can set a title and description in Joomla either in article or in menu item. Sometimes the menu item desc is used, sometimes the article one.  So if I want to override a description, I don't know if I'm supposed to override the description from the article or from the menu item. So I don't know where to store my updated description in Joomla.

The other issue here is to be able to keep everything synchronized. If you only use Joomla edit page to change your title/desc, then 4SEO can be informed of any change you make and also copy that back to our own tables (or 4SEO will be outdated). But if you use another way of changing the meta such as another plugin, a page builder or anything else, then 4SEO will not be in sync anymore.

And so considering the benefits, it's much, much safer to do it like most extensions do: let the Joomla data alone and store overrides separately.

How can I lose just my modifications if all the meta used come from your tables and I remove your component?

Not sure I understand your question. If you remove 4SEO, you will lose the data you entered in 4SEO.

custom fieds and opengraph:On another site I display the soundcloud thumbnail. I don't know how the dev' did it but you are not the first to tell me that it is difficult? 

I did not say using custom fields is difficult. That's very easy and we'll do it at some point. Simply it's a significant amount of work and it's not considered a high priority right now compared to other things.

On another site I display the soundcloud thumbnail. 

I don't understand. Displaying the soundcloud thumbnail is not difficult, you just embed their code as described in their doc. Just like for YouTube or Twitter.

What's complicated is finding the URL of the thumbnail so that we can use it in the OpenGraph tags. With YouTube it's doable with their API but complicated because you (the user) need to create a Google Application, get API keys, provide some credit card details, ... And us, we need to write quite a bit of code and documentation to connect to Google.

All that just to get the thumbnail address from Google automatically? not worth it for now at least.

SoundCloud is the same, you can get the thumbnail from their API. Same thing as Google.

See maybe his code of this very good extension: https://nx-designs.ch/showcase/exposer

This extension is NOT doing what we are discussing here. They are just inserting an iframe as mentioned in the doc. it's like inserting a youtube video. They do not do anything with OpenGraph. You do not need this extension to display these SoundClound track or YouTube video, you can just copy/paste the embed code.

I think there is total confusion here, you are confusing the display of a YouTube video or SoundCloud track in a page - which is easy and just regular content, you don't need any extension to do that - with what I am talking about: using thumbnail in OpenGraph.

Best regards

 

 

 

 

 
Sunday, 03 October 2021 05:34 UTC
system
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